tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post5056483582764484369..comments2023-07-04T10:34:08.502+01:00Comments on The Tin Drummer: Guest Posting by AlexBill Haydonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-34538549574195468382007-05-06T22:46:00.000+01:002007-05-06T22:46:00.000+01:00I haven't been to St Paul's blog, yet....I like to...I haven't been to St Paul's blog, yet....I like to think of the genius as he was, a decade ago...<BR/><BR/>how sad is that.<BR/><BR/>anyway - Alex - heat death, eh? According to no less a source than wikipedia, the heat death fate of the universe may have been greatly exaggerated, although either way, I guess proton decay hits on us all at some point (namely, 10 to the 32 years).Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-24118566409995028482007-05-05T15:29:00.000+01:002007-05-05T15:29:00.000+01:00If you are an atheist who wishes to hold to monist...<I>If you are an atheist who wishes to hold to monist naturalism, then you really have no control over your feelings, thoughts or whatever</I><BR/><BR/>No-one's yet been able to explain to me how theism gets round the issue of determinism though - if our choices aren't determined by who we are, and they're not random, then what are they? How exactly does the libertarian concept of free will actually work?Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062352280843955046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-87304959036385070942007-05-05T02:11:00.000+01:002007-05-05T02:11:00.000+01:00Alex, that was a very interesting post. I'm glad I...Alex, that was a very interesting post. I'm glad I read it. I'll be looking at your blog... <BR/><BR/>Incidentally, have you ever read Francis Schaeffer?<BR/><BR/>If not, you should. I highly recommend any of his books.Ruthiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15800371586600838226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-78058624356720110032007-05-04T19:52:00.000+01:002007-05-04T19:52:00.000+01:00Hey Matt,It's a fun time spreading our joy around ...Hey Matt,<BR/>It's a fun time spreading our joy around like this ay?<BR/><BR/>As for your discussion with TD, I'd have to say I feel pretty much the same as him on this topic.<BR/><BR/>If you are an atheist who wishes to hold to monist naturalism, then you really have no control over your feelings, thoughts or whatever, so even the value you impose on your life or others becomes nonexistent. I suppose if you want to join the camp of the dualist atheists that Stephen talks about, then we might have something to talk about, but at that point you are opening the door to something that doesn't sound quite like the atheism I've grown to know you for.<BR/><BR/>It starts to sound strangely like what you might call 'super-natural'. To be honest I'm growing increasingly uncomfortable with the connotations we've attached to that phrase, but you get my point.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to all for the encouraging words. Much is owed to the fortuitous chemistry we both rather stumbled into.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940256159530950050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-77989393646821177172007-05-03T15:56:00.000+01:002007-05-03T15:56:00.000+01:00Have you seen his blog?http://paulcornell.blogspot...Have you seen his blog?<BR/><BR/>http://paulcornell.blogspot.com/Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062352280843955046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-29441934414597522612007-05-03T11:14:00.000+01:002007-05-03T11:14:00.000+01:00Yeah, Cornell is pure class.Incidentally - trumpet...Yeah, Cornell is pure class.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally - trumpet blowing time here - as President of the Oxford DocSoc I invited him to talk to the soc, which he did, brilliantly, and he then returned for our annual dinner at which he proved that as well as being a fine writer he is also extremely funny and a shocking gossip. Or was, a decade ago.<BR/><BR/>Crikey. Time flies....Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-69717650375682050292007-05-03T10:36:00.000+01:002007-05-03T10:36:00.000+01:00The church spirit was called 'Saul'. He was an acc...The church spirit was called 'Saul'. <BR/><BR/><I>He was an accumulated wisdom, an intelligence formed from the focus of so many dutiful minds over such a long time. The Celtic Cenomanni had called him Cernwn, and each succeeding people had their own name for the spirit of the hill.<BR/><BR/>Saul had been surprised when the Christian missionaries had tried to exorcise him. But he had been taken aback when, failing to do so, they came up with a typically pragmatic answer to the problem.<BR/><BR/>They built a church around him and declared that he was an angel, or the Grace of God. Or something.</I><BR/><BR/>One of my favourite books that.Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062352280843955046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-35544270017874326042007-05-02T17:24:00.000+01:002007-05-02T17:24:00.000+01:00Incidentally, on the subject of wishing God into e...Incidentally, on the subject of wishing God into existence, the Doctor Who New Adventures novel "Timewyrm: Revelation" - St Paul of Cornell's first novel - does feature a church which has become sentient through the accumulated prayer of its worshippers (if I remember rightly).Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-12498526385970087672007-05-02T17:21:00.000+01:002007-05-02T17:21:00.000+01:00the creator's existence means that you still posse...<I>the creator's existence means that you still possess value even when you don't think you do<BR/><BR/>Thta's true. But we can't wish God into existence, so it has no bearing on whether I'm a theist or atheist. </I><BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to imply that it did - but it affects my inclination in that I find it more ethically satisfying, and hence, if you like, a kind of ontological evidence. I'm fully aware of all the other problems it creates, which don't exist in an atheist worldview, but it's the one that kind of sticks with me. My ethics hinge on the question of value and valuelessness: even if you do value your life that doesn't mean I should,(value yours I mean) unless there is some other kind of source for value we both adhere to.<BR/><BR/>As you rightly point out, you can value all life and be an atheist. It's just that, for me, that value in that case would need to be invented by a foolish, flawed human being (ie me) and not exist outside me as something real; and hence be flawed, even mistaken itself.Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-58788853733891545752007-05-02T17:12:00.000+01:002007-05-02T17:12:00.000+01:00but what happens when it ceases to have that value...<I>but what happens when it ceases to have that value?</I><BR/><BR/>I'd say that's actually incredibly rare - for example, most suicide attempts aren't made because the person doesn't want to live, but because they don't want to live as they are and believe that it's too difficult to change, which is a very different proposition. <BR/><BR/>But, if a person didn't value their life, and no-one else valued it either, then that life would be valueless. Personally, I think that <I>all</I> life has value, so technically, as long as I believe this, no-one's life can be valueless.<BR/><BR/><I>the creator's existence means that you still possess value even when you don't think you do</I><BR/><BR/>Thta's true. But we can't wish God into existence, so it has no bearing on whether I'm a theist or atheist.Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062352280843955046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-56936273474799660672007-05-02T16:49:00.000+01:002007-05-02T16:49:00.000+01:00Matt - a lot worse could happen to the blogosphere...Matt - a lot worse could happen to the blogosphere than have you and Alex taking it over.<BR/><BR/><I>My life has value to me - that's enough. That one thing alone, no matter what caused it, is enough to make my life worthwhile to me and to make the judgments I make about life significant to me.</I><BR/><BR/>And this is the crux of my problem with atheism, and where I really appreciate Alex writing it so much better than I could: I understand, Matt, that your life has value to you - but what happens when it ceases to have that value? surely then, in case of illness, or depression, or whatever, it necessarily ceases to have any value at all, since the value you put on it comes from you. I would say, in such an eventuality, that the creator's existence means that you still possess value even when you don't think you do. To me, that's more positive than the other position, even if I'm not a particularly positive person (but good at alliteration).Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-67494163695145763192007-05-02T14:50:00.000+01:002007-05-02T14:50:00.000+01:00Hi Alex,Heh - at this rate we'll have taken over t...Hi Alex,<BR/><BR/>Heh - at this rate we'll have taken over the entire blogosphere by Christmas. <BR/><BR/><I>You have no ultimate value. Your life has no ultimate significance. Your most selfless expression of compassion is no more praiseworthy than indigestion.</I><BR/><BR/>This is where I think you and I really take different paths. <BR/><BR/>In order to state the above you have to step outside of yourself and adopt the view of an external force - to that external observer, who doesn't give a fig about what I feel, my life is pointless and has no value.<BR/><BR/>However, for me, that external observer is a complete fiction. It doesn't exist, and even if it did, I see no reason why it's judgments should be more valid than my own. <BR/><BR/>My life has value <I>to me</I> - that's enough. That one thing alone, no matter what caused it, is enough to make my life worthwhile to me and to make the judgments I make about life significant to me.<BR/><BR/>It'd be nice if there all this were some grand masterplan, but if wishes were horses then we'd be knee-deep in crap... or however that saying goes.Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062352280843955046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-3587384297219066232007-05-02T13:00:00.000+01:002007-05-02T13:00:00.000+01:00I've always found In Search of High Places one of ...I've always found In Search of High Places one of the more interesting sites for debates around here. sometimes i feel I intrude with my short-ish comments, which seem paltry by comparison with the high level of intellectual debate there.<BR/>but it's a blog I really do have respect for.Crushedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02479751225625007588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-81184603562920756792007-05-02T11:17:00.000+01:002007-05-02T11:17:00.000+01:00Actually I'm chuffed that Alex wrote here. He's a...Actually I'm chuffed that Alex wrote here. He's a great guy and not because he believes in the same G-d as me. I take very little part in those debates with Matt.<BR/><BR/>There are some nice things happening with the Blogpowerers lately and Alex is very much part of that. Thank you, TD, for inviting him to guest post.James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-28593295512953834792007-05-02T09:01:00.000+01:002007-05-02T09:01:00.000+01:00Not a terribly thoughtful comment.Even if there is...Not a terribly thoughtful comment.<BR/><BR/>Even if there isn't a god, why - oh why - do atheists always end up with aggressive self righteousness, selective readings of history and bloodshed?<BR/><BR/>See. Anyone can write that.Bill Haydonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357811679771159469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31362580.post-2527855377308693232007-05-02T06:04:00.000+01:002007-05-02T06:04:00.000+01:00Lots of words but still you "hope".Even if there w...Lots of words but still you "hope".<BR/>Even if there was a god why, oh why, does it always end up with coercive priests, expensive buildings and bloodshed?<BR/><BR/>As if a god would care.malpashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03465468581504191466noreply@blogger.com